Breaking Bad Skin-Care Habits

Airdate: 4/11/14

We all have at least one bad skin-care habit, so join Nathan and Bryan as they present the eight worst skin care habits and what to do instead. From picking at a blemish to sleeping in makeup and switching skin-care routines weekly, we reveal the good skin-care habits everyone should be doing—especially if you want to avoid sun damage, red marks from breakouts, and puffy eyes.

Bryan Barron: Hi there everyone. It’s Bryan Barron with the Paula’s Choice Research Team, the research and content director for Paula’s Choice, and the site. And I’m here today doing our radio show with our social media and community manager, Nathan Rivas.
Nathan Rivas: Hello.
Bryan Barron: Hey Nathan. And today’s topic is Breaking Bad - pause, pause, because I know a lot of you like that show, let it rest in peace - Breaking Bad skincare habits.
00:00:30 We are going to talk about the eight bad habits that a lot of us do even if we’re not quite aware of it. And some of us may think, eh, it’s really not so bad. But you know what? Yeah, it kind of is. So, we are going to be telling you about those habits so that you can keep them top of mind, learn why - some of them aren’t necessarily going to be so obvious as to why they’re a bad habit. And a few of them may be like, “Oh, wow, I had no idea that was actually not so good for my skin.”
00:00:58 So, listen up. We’re going to go through the list and we’ll take a couple questions toward the end of the show from the Paula’s Choice Facebook page. So, let’s get this off and running, Nathan. What is the bad skincare habit number one that we are going to help our listeners break?
Nathan Rivas: I’d say number one, without a doubt, is not wearing sunscreen every single day.
Bryan Barron: Do I have to?
Nathan Rivas: Exactly. You know, people ask us, you know, what’s the -
Bryan Barron: But it’s not sunny!
Nathan Rivas: It’s not a very -
Bryan Barron: But I’m going to be inside all day.
Nathan Rivas: It’s, “I live in the Northwest.”
00:01:31 You know, the thing with sunscreen is that it’s - people ask us what’s the best anti-wrinkle cream.
Bryan Barron: But I don’t burn.
Nathan Rivas: Yeah. Ha! What’s the best anti-wrinkle cream? And the answer is always sunscreen. And it’s not a very, perhaps, not a very interesting answer, but by far wearing sunscreen -
Bryan Barron: No, sunscreen isn’t sexy.
Nathan Rivas: It’s not. It’s not.
Bryan Barron: It’s like saying what do I need to do to clean my teeth? Brush them. Oh…
Nathan Rivas: Brush and floss every day. Brush and floss every day.
Bryan Barron: Oh, okay.
Nathan Rivas: If you’re not wearing sunscreen every single day you’re not going to get the results you want from your products, no matter how good they are, even if you’re using them every day as you should.
00:02:04 No sunscreen equals very, very little results. Now, Bryan, we do get a lot of questions about, well, why do I need sunscreen if there’s no sun outside?
Bryan Barron: The reason, I just had this question with a customer of ours who lives in England. A very nice gentleman. And I said, you know what? I used to think the same thing, especially here in the Northwest. We don’t see a lot of sunlight. It’s cloudy most of the time.
00:02:28 But what you have to keep in mind is that it’s not the sunlight. Well, it is, but that’s part of the picture. It is the UV light/daylight, that if you can see your hand in front of your face when you’re outside, you’re getting bombarded by UV rays. The sun does not have to be out to be causing damage. The UV ray, the most damaging and the most aging UV rays, which are the UV-A. UV-C rays which luckily don’t penetrate the earth, don’t reach our surface here in any concerned amount which is great, because UV-C would be terrible.
00:03:01 But UV-A is present all day long. If you can see daylight your skin is getting hit by UV-A rays. They penetrate the skin further and they’re the most damaging. So, by protecting your skin every day with sunscreen, even when the sun isn’t out, you are ensuring to the extent possible, other than living under a lead blanket, that you are shielding your skin from multiple signs of aging. So, yeah, it’s sort of - what was that condiment commercial? Was it for A-1 Sauce or something where it was like, “Yeah, it really is that important.”
Nathan Rivas: Yes.
00:03:34 It was A-1 Sauce.
Bryan Barron: Was it A-1?
Nathan Rivas: Yeah, it was A-1 Sauce.
Bryan Barron: That was like the tagline, “Yeah, it’s that important.” I kind of think about that as far sunscreen, because I used to be one of those people that would kind of forego it. I was kind of wishy washy. And definitely when it was sunny, but now since I’ve been doing it every single day without fail I have noticed a dramatic change in my skin.
Nathan Rivas: Absolutely. Especially for things like discolorations.
Bryan Barron: Yes!
Nathan Rivas: Of course, for sun damage, of course.
00:03:59 But if you have red marks after a breakout. Those things are never going to go away if you’re not wearing sunscreen.
Bryan Barron: You will be shocked. UV light does a number on how skin heals. A lot of people don’t realize that. It’s not just about did I get burned, or did I get a tan, or am I seeing dark spots? It affects skin in numerous ways. So, there we go. Number two. Not washing your face at night. Going to bed with makeup on.
Nathan Rivas: I’m so tired, though. I just want to go to bed.
Bryan Barron: Exactly.
Nathan Rivas: I just want to go to sleep.
Bryan Barron: If you are one of those people and the prospect of standing at your sink and splashing your face and drying your face.
Nathan Rivas: Can’t I just use a wipe?
00:04:32 Isn’t it the same?
Bryan Barron: Yes! Okay, it’s not the same, but that was my suggestion. If you are prone to falling into bed and sleeping with your makeup on, keep a container of cleansing wipes like M.A.C. wipes or the makeup removing wipes from Ponds or Olay. There’s tons of them out there. Even baby wipes in a pinch can work - not very well - but in a pinch. Keep it on your bedside table and give your face, especially around the eyes, a gentle once over with that cloth.
00:05:00 You can throw it away in the morning. I won’t tell anybody. That will make a huge difference. Falling asleep with your makeup on, particularly eye makeup, is a great way to wake up to puffy, red irritated eyes. It’s a great way to push makeup further into your skin, which can result in clogged pores. It can just be irritating. Not to mention that especially if you live in the city you kind of want to wash that stuff off your face, that daily accumulation of grime and excess oil and dead skin cells.
00:05:29 All that stuff that causes the complexion to look less than its best. So, keep the cleansing cloths by your bed if you are prone to falling asleep in makeup and don’t think you can change that habit by actually washing your face at a sink.
Nathan Rivas: Absolutely. And just to touch on that, it’s definitely not the same thing as washing your face. It’s not something you’d want to do in the long term.
Bryan Barron: Don’t make a nightly habit of it. Exactly.
Nathan Rivas: Exactly. So, the next one is somewhat common that we see, at least we see a lot of it on Facebook and Twitter especially, is people who are using mismatched skin type products.
00:06:04 When I say mismatched I mean they’re not using the right products for their skin type. And it’s easy to get seduced by a product, especially if you read beauty magazines and you’ll see a beauty editor just rave about a moisturizer and say how it made their skin glowy. And they don’t really mention anything about what their skin type is or the skin type for this particular product. And it’s kind of funny because a lot of brands don’t really even specify what skin type their product is for.
00:06:29 They just say Anti-Aging Moisturizer. And so one thing when it comes to skin type is that no matter how great a product is, if it’s not right for your particular skin type it’s not a good fit.
Bryan Barron: Right. Exactly. And skin type can be incredibly confusing. We have several articles about it under the basic skincare section of our Expert Advice tab on So, you can read more about it there. But, choosing the right products for your skin type is critical to having the skin you want.
00:07:01 And it can be tricky. And we understand that and the Paula’s Choice Team is here to help you figure that out. Next one is - this is a favorite - actually, Nathan, you should be talking about this, so I’ll let you. Using alcohol-based products or other irritants.
Nathan Rivas: Argh! Alcohol.
Bryan Barron: Before I turn it over to Nathan I just wanted to add that there are a lot of products out there that have ingredients that you may not even think are irritating. And heading up the list are a lot of natural ingredients.
Nathan Rivas: Yes.
Bryan Barron: Don’t make the mistake of thinking that just because it’s a natural ingredient it must be safer or better or non-irritating or gentler for your skin.
00:07:39 Absolutely not the case. There are very good natural ingredients that are soothing, and that are beneficial for the skin, but you need to know what those are and not just go into a product blindly thinking, “Oh, it’s all-natural. It’s got natural ingredients. Nothing could possibly go wrong.”
Nathan Rivas: That’s true. I think it’s so funny that that misbelief is still pervasive.
00:08:02 I mean, because you wouldn’t go into a forest and just kind of randomly eat mushrooms or berries off trees because you don’t really know what’s going to be good for you and what isn’t.
Bryan Barron: Exactly. Not unless you have a book or some sort of wise guide with you that says, “No, this leaf good, this leaf is fatal.”
Nathan Rivas: Yes, exactly. So, you wouldn’t use the things like poison ivy in your skincare and that’s perfectly natural. Not to harp on that, but yes, there are a lot of great natural ingredients and a lot of really bad ones.
Bryan Barron: But what’s particularly bad about alcohol, because we get a lot of pushback on this from some people.
Nathan Rivas: Ugh, alcohol. Alcohol is, ugh.
00:08:40 Alcohol-based products. So, there is kind of a bit of a miscommunication or a misunderstanding about alcohol in skincare products in terms of how they are harmful to skin. Because one thing I tend to see a lot in terms of pushback is, “Oh well, you’re saying that it causes free radical damage, but the only free radical studies I see has to do with drinking it.”
00:09:02 And, well, that’s kind of, that’s half true, because that’s not all we say about alcohol in skincare products. If you read our article on alcohol and skin or alcohol-based products in skin on our website, we do talk about the effect with studies that use skin as an example and regular exposure of alcohol-based products to skin. So, don’t believe the discussion board commenters about, “Oh, the only research out there has to do with drinking it.”
00:09:29 Because there’s quite a lot of research out there that demonstrates using an alcohol-based product really does destroy the skin’s natural barrier. And there’s a lot of research that demonstrates that once that barrier is destroyed by alcohol or damaged by alcohol, that skin cannot really fully repair itself back to the way it was before.
Bryan Barron: Yeah, when you pointed that out to me, because this was a relatively recent find, I was surprised by that. It really made me want to come down even harder on products that have alcohol, particularly - and we’re talking about those that list alcohol maybe anywhere between number two and five on the ingredient list.
00:10:06 It’s rare to find a product that lists alcohol as the first ingredient. They’re out there, but luckily we don’t see them too often. Because sometimes, that is another question - the issue of concentration of alcohol and how much is too much. And generally when you see it towards the top third of the ingredient list and especially if when you’re testing the product if you get that sense of quick evaporation, or if you get that smell or that cooling sensation that, for example, rubbing alcohol can create on the skin, that is a very good sign that there is enough alcohol in that product to harm your skin.
Nathan Rivas: That’s right.
00:10:40 So, don’t get the “beer goggles” of makeup or skincare by thinking because it feels good, or it looks great on skin. The alcohol is always a long term problem for skin.
Bryan Barron: And if you have oily skin, I totally get why swabbing your face with alcohol or an alcohol-based toner immediately makes your skin look matte and takes that greasy, shiny, yucky feeling away. Yes, it does.
00:11:03 Alcohol is a wonderful degreasing agent, but the irritation it’s causing - it’s a double edged sword for those with oily skin because it stimulates nerve endings at the base of the pores and those nerve endings are connected to oil glands. And when those nerve endings are stimulated from an irritant, they send a message to the oil gland and guess what that message is?
Nathan Rivas: Time to break out. Ha!
Bryan Barron: Well, the first message is time to make more oil, which then has to try to get up through the lining of the pore. And who knows what it may encounter along the way and form a clog which could then introduce itself to acne causing bacteria.
00:11:43 And Nathan is having a chair malfunction.
Nathan Rivas: I’m having a chair problem right now.
Bryan Barron: He’s gradually getting shorter.
Nathan Rivas: I will preserver.
Bryan Barron: It will introduce itself to acne-causing bacteria which could result in a pimple. If there’s no bacteria involved you may see a blackhead. Or a whitehead, also known as a closed comedone.
00:12:00 So, all of that can be a side effect of using alcohol to degrease the skin. You think you’re doing something great for your skin and the immediate gratification is like, “Yes, I’m not greasy anymore,” but then, oops, in a matter of time you’re oilier. So, next one is changing your skincare routine too often. And by that we mean not giving the routine that you’re using, assuming the products are those that for example that we recommend or that you just know are well formulated, not because a cosmetic sales person told you, or your friend told you, because you’ve got a pretty good knowledge of what’s well formulated and what’s not.
00:12:36 You want to make sure that you are not changing your routine too often because you will end up creating a skin type that you don’t have, for example, extreme combination skin because you just can’t decide what to use or what to do. Or, you could end up creating, by doing too much of certain things which can lead to signs of irritation like dryness and flaking.
Nathan Rivas: That’s true. And one thing that we see sometimes from customers or just questions in general is that we’ll see, “Oh, I’ve been using your retinol serum. I’ve been using this retinol serum for some time and I don’t see any results. I don’t really know what’s going on. Maybe it doesn’t work for me.”
00:13:13 And then you ask, well, how long have you been using it? And this is assuming that everything is good in their routine and that it’s a well formulated product. And then we hear, “Oh, I’ve been using it for about a month. About a month now.” And you didn’t get these signs of aging or this damage to skin in a month, or in a week. And so certainly it’s going to take skin longer to recover from that.
00:13:32 And that’s assuming that everything is perfect in your routine, that you’re wearing sunscreen every day and the rest of your routine is filled with well formulated products and all that sort of - all that sort of thing there.
Bryan Barron: Yes. For example, if you are using one really well formulated product but the rest of your routine, and this may be because you just don’t quite know that this is the case, so this isn’t about assigning blame, but if the rest of your routine is composed of products that have problematic or irritating ingredients, by default that one good product you’re using, whoever it makes it, or however much it costs cannot work to the extent possible because those other products you’re using are getting in the way of the results.
Nathan Rivas: It’s like those people you see riding a bike and smoking at the same time.
00:14:16 Exercising and smoking. They won’t negate each other.
Bryan Barron: Yeah, going to the gym one more time per week isn’t going to undo the fact that you’ve been smoking extra cigarettes or just smoking at all. So, try to keep them - the natural question is well how long do I have to use a product in order to see results.
00:14:33 It depends on the product. And it also depends on your skin type, your concern, and your own expectations. Sometimes our expectations about what is possible from skincare are just unrealistic. And a lot of that is a problem that is pervasive in the cosmetics industry. The cosmetics industry has essentially created consumers who demand types of results that really aren’t possible.
Nathan Rivas: Absolutely.
Bryan Barron: They’re giving them what they think that they want without - more than likely of course they have to know that their products can’t possibly do that.
00:15:09 We really take a lot of care with what we write about our own products at Paula’s Choice and try to make sure that everything that we say is supportable or already supported by published research. So, whether we’re talking about one of our products firming the skin, helping to make pores smaller, eliminating blackheads, there has to be something scientific and verifiable to go on.
00:15:33 We’re never going to write something about our products that we think, well, let’s just write this because it’s what women want to hear. It’s what men think that a skincare product should do. It should feel bracing, so let’s just say that. That’s not how we operate.
Nathan Rivas: I think that’s a good way to lead into the next one which is using too many actives in your skincare routine.
Bryan Barron: Breaking Bad skincare habits number six. Yes, doing too much at once. Thinking if a little bit is good, then more must be better.
Nathan Rivas: Absolutely.
00:16:01 And it’s definitely, you know, skin just can’t - this is very much related to number five is that skin is only capable of making so much change within such a period of time. So, even if you’re using twice the amount of BHA, or if I layer a BHA with an AHA, or if I use an even stronger retinol product will I get results twice as fast? And, no, if you’re trying to get, for example, if you’re exercising, you’re trying to get in shape, if you start out immediately by running 20 miles after not running at all just one day will you wake up the next morning and be an ultra-marathoner?
00:16:37 No. You won’t. You’ll wake up the next morning in pretty bad shape I think. So, the same thing with your skin in terms of that respect is that if you use too much too fast, or stronger than what your skin can tolerate expecting to get results twice as quickly. You’re really more than likely going to be dealing with irritation as a result and not really so much in the results department.
Bryan Barron: Right.
00:17:03 Especially when you are fighting signs of aging, the temptation is there are so many great ingredients out there to help skin look and act younger. We use quite a few of them in our products. But even we’re not using everything that’s out there because it can get quickly overwhelming and a lot of people think that what we have right now is overwhelming. And it kind of is when you’re just trying to decide, which is why we’re here to help you.
00:17:29 But - where was I going with all of this?
Nathan Rivas: I think that -
Bryan Barron: You don’t have to apply everything all at once.
Nathan Rivas: Exactly.
Bryan Barron: You can alternate days. You can do one thing in the morning and the other at night. It’s not about applying 72 products as part of your nightly routine so that you need to start getting ready for bed as soon as you finish dinner.
Nathan Rivas: And I think that somewhat the - not somewhat - I think it actually is true that a lot of the media does have somewhat, some responsibility there because whenever we talk about miracle ingredient, it seems like when you read in the media that, “Oh, vitamin C is a great ingredient, but it’s only effective at 30%. To really get those results you have to use a 3% retinol product,” or you have to use some insane strength of product.
00:18:12 And we see it all the time and it’s really not accurate. You would be surprised at, or maybe not surprised if you’ve been listening to us for some time - you would be surprised at how little of a strength of an ingredient you actually need to produce results. There is a lot of research around antioxidants and cell communicating ingredients that you will see results from some types of ingredients at fairly low percentages, especially when you’re combining them with other beneficial ingredients.
Bryan Barron: Right.
00:18:40 And then there are ingredients, for example, higher strengths of salicylic acid have their place, higher strengths of retinol can have their place. I wouldn’t say a higher strength retinol product is an all everyone across the board type proposition. It’s something that you really need to experiment with. And the same is true for higher strength vitamin C products like our Resist C-15.
Nathan Rivas: Absolutely.
Bryan Barron: Not everyone can use that.
00:19:03 It is a formula that we created for all skin types, but some people’s skin for whatever reason, they’re own skin, what else they’re using, just may not be able to tolerate it, or may not be able to tolerate it daily. So, don’t give up on a product like that. Before you throw in the towel think about how could I adjust the frequency of application or what I’m using this with so that I can still get results from this product.
Nathan Rivas: Absolutely.
Bryan Barron: So, Nathan, let’s talk about number seven - squeezing blemishes incorrectly.
Nathan Rivas: Oh!
00:19:33 So -
Bryan Barron: Which is really more about picking the skin, isn’t it?
Nathan Rivas: That’s absolutely true. And so it’s -
Bryan Barron: Which is so hard not to do when you’ve got a breakout. Ah!
Nathan Rivas: Exactly. It’s just staring you in the face. And you know that -
Bryan Barron: You want to eviscerate it.
Nathan Rivas: You just want it off. The problem with if you’re trying to get - you’re picking at a blemish. If you’re trying to get it to go away faster you can fall into this trap where you’re spending too much time manipulating it and what can happen if a blemish isn’t ready to go. It’s not ready to pop.
00:20:02 And oftentimes I think you can really tell that if you don’t see any type of kind of surface indication that it’s ready to go. You don’t see like a whitehead or something along those lines. If you’re just manipulating this blemish that’s just one big red dot, all you’re doing is creating more damage inside the blemish. You’re pushing that infection deeper into the skin. You’re pushing it so that it gets kind of a wider circumference under that skin.
00:20:28 And you can end up with a pretty bad result in terms of extending the life of that blemish or even extending the severity.
Bryan Barron: Yes. Up to and including a scar that you may not have otherwise had if you’d just left it alone. And I’m not talking about scarring in the sense of there’s a discoloration where it used to be. That pink, red, or brown mark that will fade over time. I’m talking about damage to the underlying support structure of skin to the collagen where you actually get what’s called an ice pick or a pitted type of scr.
00:20:58 Or you could turn an ordinary pimple into something that’s more cystic. And a cystic breakout is much more likely to leave a permanent scar. So, really quickly Nathan, how should one squeeze a blemish correctly?
Nathan Rivas: Oh, well, I think -
Bryan Barron: If you just can’t leave it alone.
Nathan Rivas: Exactly. If you can’t leave it alone, the first thing is just take a look at it and see whether or not it has any indication of it being ready to go, as they say. If there’s a whitehead clearly on top.
00:21:32 Wait until, you know, after you’ve washed your face and your face is dry and you take some Kleenex because you don’t want to scratch it with your fingernail. And just kind of push very lightly around the outer edges of the blemish. And I mean, lightly like it’s an eggshell lightly. If nothing happens within a few pushes, and I mean like two or three gentle pushes, then it’s not ready. It’s not ready to go. Depending on the size of the blemish you might try using a blemish extractor. Like we have a blemish extracting tool, but depending on the size of the blemish it may or may not be something that works for you.
00:22:05 You can try that or you can try the Kleenex method. But two to three pushes maximum. Very mild pressure. And then, again, you want to make sure that it has some type of sign that it’s ready to go.
Bryan Barron: Yeah. And that is perhaps the hardest thing is that once you start and you see that the blemish isn’t quite ready yet you really just need to lay down your arms, literally and figuratively, and step away from the mirror.
00:22:30 And just say, okay, not it’s time yet. And know that by doing so, yeah, I know you’re walking away with that blemish on your face that you just want to go away, but you are doing your skin a favor in the long run. So, last, just to close out this topic of Breaking Bad skincare habits is relying on scrubs solely as your sole source of exfoliation. Now, you may be thinking, well, what else is there? How else am I going to exfoliate my skin? Am I supposed to use a washcloth?
00:22:58 You certainly could. But, an even better option and far better in terms of results than any scrub could possibly do, because really the best scrubs can do is exfoliate superficially and kind of create the extra cleansing step. You want an AHA or BHA exfoliant, alpha hydroxy acid such as glycolic acid or lactic acid. Salicylic acid is the beta BHA, beta hydroxy acid. Salicylic acid is the prime one.
00:23:27 There are some offshoots to that such as Betaine Salicylate that are showing up in some products, but salicylic acid is pretty much the only game in town. Both of these work in a manner that is different from scrubs. Both of these - a lot of people will say that a scrub is a mechanical exfoliant, meaning that it requires effort on your part in order to do something. You have to move scrub over skin. Whereas AHAs and BHAs are a chemical exfoliant meaning that, yes, you move it around your skin when you apply it, but then once you do it is hands off.
00:24:02 You leave it on your skin. You don’t rinse it off. It goes to work getting though and getting rid of that dead dry dull-looking upper layer of skin cells. BHA helps to fight clogged pores, breakouts, redness, because it’s anti-inflammatory. AHA ingredients help bind moisture to skin, which is why AHAs are preferred for normal to dry or sun-damaged skin and BHA is a better option for oily or breakout-prone skin or those who are struggling with large pores.
00:24:32 Nathan, anything to add?
Nathan Rivas: Just that it’s a great way to describe this as being just an extra cleansing step, because that’s really all the scrub is. It helps to boost the cleansing ability of your cleanser, whether or not you’re using -
Bryan Barron: Yes. And most scrubs these days, it didn’t use to be this way, but most scrubs nowadays have cleansing ingredients.
Nathan Rivas: Absolutely.
Bryan Barron: So, on the days that you’re using a scrub, and I would never recommend somebody using a scrub at night if you’re wearing makeup.
00:25:02 Because trying to scrub off your makeup -
Nathan Rivas: Just seems unpleasant.
Bryan Barron: Yeah. It just seems unpleasant. So, scrubs if you use them at all are best used in the morning. And because most of them come in a cleansing base you do not need to wash your face and then scrub. You just use the scrub in place of your regular cleanser.
Nathan Rivas: So, no, I don’t really have anything else to add. I think that’s a great way to sum it up.
Bryan Barron: Okay. Well, we need to wrap up this show before they turn the lights out here at the studio. So, I apologize we are not taking Facebook fan questions on this show, but you are welcome to visit the Paula’s Choice Facebook page or our Twitter, Instagram, all of our social media options at any time and leave your questions or comments for us.
00:25:38 We will do our best to answer them for you. You’re welcome to visit us any time at, where you will not only find our products but also a ton of product reviews from over 300 brands and Beautypedia reviews. And a whole laundry list of Expert Advice articles on everything from acne, to wrinkles, and all kinds of skin conditions and procedures in between.
00:26:01 If you do not find what you’re looking for on our site we encourage you to let us know, hey, you guys should do an article on this. Hey, you guys should review this product. It is our job to keep you beautifully informed. It’s a job that we take very seriously, myself, Nathan Rivas, our social media community manager, and the rest of the Paula’s Choice Research Team which, of course, includes Paula Begoun herself.
Nathan Rivas: You said that all in one breath. I can’t believe it.
Bryan Barron: The original Cosmetics Cop. This is what happens when I drink tea in the afternoon. Everybody, thank you so much for listening. It’s been our pleasure talking with you today. And until next time, I am Bryan Barron and goodbye.
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